Can’t Have Everything

I singled out feminism and feminists when I said you can have anything, just not everything, but that’s mainly because so many feminists out there who want “equality” really just want to be handed everything, want whoever gets in the way of that to be labeled as “oppressors”, and want to bitch when they’re actually treated fairly, as individuals rather than as women.

Honestly, if true feminists, the ones who won the fight for women’s right to vote, the ones that were fighting against real oppression, saw what “feminism” is in the modern day…

Don’t you think they’d be more than a little embarrassed by modern day feminists? Don’t you think they’d look at the state of our society, see how much has been gained, and roll their eyes at how their present day counter parts play the victim? I think they’d be thinking…

“These crazy bitches are blind if they can’t see how good they have it.”

That’s really the problem I have with current feminism. Anyone still fighting for freedom or equal treatment under that banner needs to get a fucking clue. They can’t seem to see that the equality and fair treatment they’re supposedly (still) fighting for has already been achieved.

Achieved by real feminists, who had real struggles and real discrimination to overcome.

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18 thoughts on “Can’t Have Everything

  1. This one I disagree with a lot more. No, I don’t think so – partly because some of the feminists from older generations have come out and agreed with what modern feminists are fighting for.
    Do I think there are radical feminists? Absolutely. (Online) I’ve met a few. I don’t think they deserve the term, because they don’t seem to care about equality.
    But the majority of feminists I’m aware of, and associate with, are nothing like that.
    Things are better, yes. But that doesn’t mean discrimination doesn’t exist. Sexism isn’t faced. Inequality is no longer a problem. I personally think it’s incredibly dangerous to compare things: things once been worse, or worse in another place, doesn’t make the grievances addressed any less serious.

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    • Gender discrimination is illegal now, so if people aren’t facing it, suing over it, etc. that’s they’re problem. The laws are on the books. Equal pay is a great example. If you’re doing the exact same job a guy is doing and getting paid less for it, that’s an illegal move on the part of your employer. It’s not allowed anymore. So if the still existing sexist practices do take place, there’s legal recourse. Meaning that by and large it’s not a problem, and where and when it *is* a problem, it can be addressed via our very own *laws*. The inequality you’re talking about is outlawed already. So yes, it does make them less serious imho. They’re blown way out of proportion by most feminists, and I’m not entirely sure (so far) that you’re even an exception to that, ’cause to me, that’s exactly what you’re doing, blowing out of proportion the few issues that still, to a small degree, exist here and there.

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      • No, that’s not true. Equal pay isn’t as equal as you think – it’s more in comparison to salary than wages. For example, when applying for jobs in my field, there’s often a pay discrepancy based on criteria of around $20,000. They mention what some of that criteria may be (for example, work experience) but it’s often up to the employer’s discretion, making it ‘justifiable’. And if I’m not aware of what a man is being paid compared to me because I don’t have his time sheet, I can’t do anything about it, can I?
        I really don’t think these issues are issues that are being blown out of proportion. As a man just got off for raping a woman because the judge said ‘A conviction would ruin his life’, I think it’s pretty safe to say a lot of the things I’m raising deserve a lot more attention.

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      • Maybe it’s no as unequal as *you* think. See, the flip side to your argument is, if you’re not aware of what a man is being paid because you don’t have his time sheet, you don’t know that you’re being paid less. It’s also a cop out, because while employers don’t have to (and usually won’t) give you the time sheet of a male employee just to prove it, you (or feminist groups n general) can always have a male friend go in and apply with identical work history and so on, and see what the opening pay is for him versus you (or any other female, if it’s a group of feminists doing it).

        All that to say, you can say there’s a $20,000 discrepancy, but what specific examples can you point to to prove it? Saying you don’t have access to the information is pretty much a cop out in my book.

        You can get access in most contexts, whether the employer wants you to or not, and even whether you’re supposed to or not.

        As for the guy who got let off on a rape charge, I can’t speak to it because I don’t know what specific case you’re referring to, but a) mistakes do happen and b) maybe he wasn’t let off; without knowing the details of the case, he could’ve been completely innocent for all I know.

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      • There’s plenty of sources to back it up credibly – I’m just saying that that’s how corporations can get away with it. I’m actually doing a post on it soon, once I’ve finished the research, if you want to check it out there (it will come with references from various sources).

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      • Sounds like a problem with the campus, possibly, and with the judge, definitely. Not with society as a whole. That judge made an unethical ruling that should bring his job into question. That’s all I really see there though.

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      • But it’s not. These things happen ALL the time. Over and over again. 12 year old was gang raped. What was she wearing? Why was she out? Same questions, over and over again. It’s not a standout case. A judge recently ruled in the US that it wasn’t rape if a woman was unconscious because she couldn’t say no and if she was unconscious it was her fault. It’s not a stand alone case. It’s not a one off. It happens all the time.

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      • Happens all the time? I’d love to know the statistics, because that “1 in 5” number on colleges, for example, is pure fiction. So first problem is, “how often does the thing itself happen?” has yet to be adequately or honestly answered, and secondarily, how often do these questions *really* get raised in terms of hard numbers? What are the statistics. And then, maybe more importantly, how often are the people who raise these questions mocked, ridiculed, and put in their place? Quite often actually, as they should be. It’s not a one-off, on that we agree for sure, but it’s just not as socially acceptable as you seem to be saying it is. There may have been a judge who said “if a woman was unconscious it was her fault”, but I’m completely unconvinced that that’s the norm, and I know of at least one I saw in the news a few weeks ago where another judge ruled the exact opposite. Woman unconscious = not able to give consent = a clear, indisputable case of rape. That, far more than what you’re saying, seems to hold true with the general public and with plenty of other judges, prosecutors, etc.

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      • In Australia, it’s 1 in 5 – not for colleges, just for all women in Australia who will be sexually assaulted or raped in their lifetime. I agree – statistics are always flawed. There’s so many people, of both genders/sexes that don’t come forward, so that statistic could even be higher. I don’t think so. Have you been following the case in America? With the man who received a lenient sentencing? He raped an unconscious woman. Click on my latest blog post for details. Read what his father wrote. Read what the victim wrote about her own trial, and the questions she was asked.

        Whether you like it or not, you need to listen to this: it is perfectly normal for a woman’s life to be dissected when she comes forward in regards to rape and sexual assault. Men frequently don’t receive charges, and when charges are laid, they are unlikely to serve any prison time. When women come forward, they’re often shamed. You need to listen because it is normal. It’s normal enough for women to be saying it happens all the time. Why would it be a big deal if it didn’t? It is the general rule. It is the way things work. I’m friends with three lawyers, and they would say the same. They’ve either used or seen the tactics used in court. Perhaps it’s time to start listening to what women are saying about their experiences, instead of going with what you think? Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it’s not real.

        In the meantime, at least read the victim’s letter. This is reality. This is what so many women go through. Her case isn’t the exception: it’s the rule. http://www.mamamia.com.au/stanford-swimmer-rape-statement/

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      • “Whether you like it or not, you need to listen to this: it is perfectly normal for a woman’s life to be dissected when she comes forward in regards to rape and sexual assault.”

        The dissection aspect doesn’t bother me. Credibility for any accusation, rape or otherwise, needs to be an aspect of any case.

        I’ll read her letter, but I’m not going to concede the point just because you’re trying to persuade via the emotional angle, especially in lieu of supporting facts and accurate statistics. I don’t know about Australia ’cause I haven’t looked into that country, I don’t live there and frankly don’t care about it (although if that statistic is true there, feminists should care a lot more about that than anything going on here in the States, the same way they should care about women getting stoned do death for stepping outside the bounds of their oppressive patriarchy in places like Saudi Arabia, but you don’t hear about that half as much as you hear about what’s supposedly going on in places like the U.S., and if they truly cared, they’d be a lot more focused on the *truly* bad places some women have to live in.) I do know this though: college rap culture is not a real thing, and the 1 in 5 stat that a feminist group pulled out of thin air does not apply to colleges here. There are no accurate, professional, unbiased studies that come anywhere near that number.

        Bottom line is, I *do* listen, and I also think for myself, research what I’m being told, and come to my own conclusions based on that. My stance is what it is because of that. You can disagree, but you might want to pay attention to the fine line between having a conversation and talking down to someone. I’m not speaking from a position of ignorance, and assuming I am is a mistake on your part.

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      • I’m not talking down to you, and I’m not trying to suggest you’re ignorant. I’m not even trying to make an emotional plea to get you to listen or change your mind. What I’m simply trying to state is that this might be a case where you HAVE to listen to what women are saying. Like you said yourself, the statistics aren’t reliable. Not everyone comes forward. If women are saying it’s a problem, a serious problem, and that they are often treated this way by everyone – by society, by friends, sometimes by family, by police, by the court system – then maybe it’s time to listen to that. I don’t mean in a you-can’t-think-for-yourself way, or any other way. I just mean that if the statistics are unreliable, that means any research done is reasonably unreliable – but not in favour of women NOT being raped (because it’s to do with people not coming forward). Again, with the US/Australia thing, this is where we’ll have problems. Whilst I’m fairly aware of US laws and I keep up closely with current news events, I can’t presume to know everything happening there (and I obviously don’t expect the same from you).

        From my research, I’ve learnt that there does seem to be a college/university rape problem in the US, but yes, I have also heard that the statistics are flawed. I’ve also seen multiple cases where women have been discouraged from reporting their rapes, so perhaps the statistic is adjusted for inflation. Or perhaps it seems high because it’s look at a smaller group of people. Or perhaps it’s including more than just rape (such as sexual assault, harassment, abuse). I honestly can’t tell you why, and anything I said would be based on educated guesses from research, but not necessarily correct.

        I do believe certain questions need to be asked during an interrogation, yes. But asking a woman how much she drank implies it’s her fault. It either says she was too drunk to remember (which makes it rape, anyway, so I don’t know why people always go for that line of questioning) or she was somehow asking for it (which, again, would make it rape unless she actually was literally asking to have sex). Asking what she was wearing does the same thing. What a woman is wearing has no impact on whether she should be raped or not. I agree with interrogating any person that makes a rape claim – otherwise, we could have a serious issue on our hands (although, in Australia, in the past 10 years, only 2% of rape claims have been false – and that includes people who withdrew their complaints, so they might not actually be ‘false’. My point is, in Australia, the number is almost negligible – and it needs to stay that way).

        I think saying that we need to focus on the ‘truly bad’ places only is dangerous. It’s kind of like saying, ‘Well, things could be worse.’ Yeah, they could. But does it make you feel better if you have cancer if someone in a developing country has cancer and because they live in poverty they can’t get better? Should you not be able to express your pain, anger and frustration because someone else has it worse? That mentality is dangerous and dismissive. Just because it’s worse in other places doesn’t mean there isn’t problems in developed countries. It also doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fix the problems within our own countries.

        I, personally, try and help developing countries – and quite actively. But realistically, there is only so much that can be done. And why is left only to feminists to carry that burden? Why aren’t you including everyone in that bracket? If you truly cared about equality, should you not be saying you should help women in developing countries that are stoned to death? How can feminists fight everything? Write now, in an act of trying to convince you that rape and rape culture is a problem, I’m obviously prevented from doing other things. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not doing anything important – I’m watching a horror movie and it’s 9.30 at night. I doubt I was going to do something important anyway, plus it’s a really good horror movie. But my point is, feminists spend so much time trying to convince people that their agendas are “true” and “valuable” and “honest”. It makes it harder to make a difference when you’re actually trying to do that, and you have to stop and explain to someone every five minutes (I don’t mean that as a dig at you, and I hope it doesn’t come across that way). What I mean is, feminists are frequently questioned about everything. It’s like fighting several battles all at once, and it’s still not good enough.

        It reminds me of what it’s like in the classroom – you need to get the work the students are doing up. But then the office rings, because such and such needs to leave. So such and such leaves. Then, because you were on the phone, Jill and Tom are fighting. So, you break up the fight, and try to get the class to focus on the work. Then John yells out that this is boring, and you realise Sally isn’t copying anything down, and despite the fact you’ve said three times to copy the work down, and everyone else is currently copying the work down, she goes, “Oh, are we meant to be copying?” Then Jack needs to go the toilet, although he probably doesn’t really, he just wants to be out of class. Now Amber’s annoyed because Jack got to go to the toilet and she really wants to go. Jack’s returned and wants to know why we have to learn this.

        It’s impossible – and that’s (sadly) what it’s like as a teacher. And a feminist. You’re trying to do one job, but everyone else wants something. Some people want to prove you don’t hate men. Or that you are actually attractive, because feminism is apparently only for ugly people. Or that you want women to be superior to men. I don’t mind having the conversations, and doing my best to explain, but can you see how it makes the movement hard when it’s challenged constantly? On so many levels? I don’t want women being stoned to death. But right now, I don’t know what to do about that. I don’t know how I can help. Literally. But I do know how I can help here. I do know how I can help other people. I do know how I can help people in other countries.

        I’m not assuming you’re ignorant. You don’t seem to be at all. I’m not assuming you’re stupid. You’re clearly not. I’m not assuming you don’t look into this information, or you haven’t researched it. If it seems that way, that is not my intent. I’m also not trying to do the ’emotive manipulation’ thing. All I’m trying to do is point out the logic of something very important that we can both agree on: the statistics are flawed. Women are frequently raped. Whatever the number is, it is quite high. Many women never report their rapes. Often when they do, there’s not enough evidence (not uncommon, for various reasons) or they are completely dismissed or not believed. They face victim-shaming and blaming. It’s not an uncommon occurrence. When I say that maybe you should listen to what women are saying more, I don’t mean to say you’re ignorant, or to emotionally manipulate you. I’m saying that maybe this is something that research can’t always give you: that maybe there’s a reason why so many women are ‘crying out’, if that makes sense. I hope I’ve made it clearer this time; I’m sorry it wasn’t clear before.

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      • “If women are saying it’s a problem, a serious problem, and that they are often treated this way by everyone – by society, by friends, sometimes by family, by police, by the court system – then maybe it’s time to listen to that.”

        Except that not *all* women are saying it’s a big problem, and given the things I’m aware of in addition to what (some) women say that give reason to doubt the statistics currently thrown around and give reason to doubt that’s it’s as wide spread as is often claimed, I don’t know what you mean by “listen”. I listen, but listening to someone does not mean I have to agree with them.

        “I’m saying that maybe this is something that research can’t always give you: that maybe there’s a reason why so many women are ‘crying out’, if that makes sense.”

        I get where you’re coming from, but I’m not sure you really get what I’m trying to get at. What I’m saying is, how many women are there in the world, and of that number, how many are actively, regularly “crying out”? Not that many, and of those who are, a great many (feminists) have not even had to deal with the hardships. They’re surrogate complainers for other people, or for unsubstantiated abstractions.

        And the “not all women come forward” thing is another cop out. Sure, to a certain degree that’s true, but you can’t claim something is going on on a massive scale, get challenged on it, and then say “well the evidence is there in an overwhelming way, you just can’t tell because one of the things about this issue is so many don’t come forward”. It’s convenient for you because you can inflate the size of the issue with some unknown number of women that I can’t argue against or disprove, because you can’t even prove they’re there; that’s not to say they aren’t either, just that you have no way of knowing the magnitude (or lack thereof), so it’s an ineffective way of getting your point across.

        “I don’t mind having the conversations, and doing my best to explain, but can you see how it makes the movement hard when it’s challenged constantly? On so many levels?”

        Has it ever occured to you that the reason it’s challenged on so many levels these days, is because there are so many things wrong with it? So many shortcomings in logic and/or evidence? So many points of weakness to the modern talking points and claims of feminism? Has it ever occurred to you that equal opportunity doesn’t mean equal outcomes? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe women now, for the most part, have the equal opportunity they wanted, and that people think they want superiority because they got their equality and yet still demand more? ‘Cause that’s all occurred to me.

        “I do believe certain questions need to be asked during an interrogation, yes. But asking a woman how much she drank implies it’s her fault.”

        N it doesn’t. It’s establishing and putting to record the circumstances surrounding the allegations. It’s important because knowing every angle of a situation, a crime, helps a jury make an informed decision.

        Some people might think that somehow makes it the woman’s fault, I guess, maybe (I doubt it though), but a lot of other people would see that question asked, hear an answer in the affirmative, and decide on a harsher sentence for the rapist because the victim was in a more vulnerable state than if she (or he, for that matter) had been sober. You’re only seeing the side of it you want to see, the side of it that advances your feminist agenda and your feminist biases. My opinion anyways, but I think I just demonstrated it pretty clearly.

        “I think saying that we need to focus on the ‘truly bad’ places only is dangerous.”

        Okay, let me make a clear distinction than and clarify exactly what I meant by “truly bad places”. I mean it as in, “places where *real* sexism and *real* oppression are happening.” As opposed to the virtual lack of any of that in the places that are *not* “truly bad places”, because for the most part none of that is going on anymore, certainly not on as wide a scale as most feminists believe or claim. You yourself have even exaggerated the level of inequality in the course of our back and forth.

        “All I’m trying to do is point out the logic of something very important that we can both agree on: the statistics are flawed.”

        You don’t seem to realize though, that that fact undermines your whole position in just about every way possible. For example, you can’t say that and then say this in the next sentence:

        “Women are frequently raped. Whatever the number is, it is quite high.”

        If the statistics are flawed, you don’t know enough to be able to say that with any confidence. And it’s not as if there aren’t some more professionally done studies than the ones commonly used, just that there’s not enough of them, and that those that are done well tend to show a pretty big gap between what feminists claim is going on and what’s *actually* going on. Even in the more widely accepted stats, if you look at the internals (e.g. the wage gap studies), you see that only going by the overall men vs. overall women earnings paints a misleading picture. It’s an oversimplification, spin, and the numbers from one area to the next fluctuate widely, with women in some areas making more than men, and (naturally) vice versa, and none of it necessarily due to sexism or gender bias. Most of it, if not all, being due to personal choices, equal opportunity, and a difference between men and women on whether they seize those opportunities, what they do with them when they do, and so on. And that’s still only a small fragment of the various other factors that can explain the so called “wage gap” without falling back on sexism or unfairness.

        “I hope I’ve made it clearer this time; I’m sorry it wasn’t clear before.”

        You’re being clear, it’s just that I’m not sure what you’re conveying. See, even in this latest response you don’t mean to talk down to me or tell me I’m ignorant, but it’s like the “woman hater” myth in a sense. You may not mean to, but it’s clearly a foregone conclusion for you that your position is the correct one, that no matter what is said, what angle is looked at, what numbers can or can’t be trusted, your conclusion, your assertions, will remain the same and they’re (as far as you’re concerned) most definitely right. It’s kind of like what a bad cop does when investigating, or what a bad scientist does when experimenting: instead of taking in the evidence and coming to a conclusion based on that, you’ve got your theory and you’re trying to fit whatever information you come across into supporting that theory, bending them as needed, maybe even unwittingly, even brushing off the more inconvenient bits if needed, if it just doesn’t fit into the narrative you’ve decided to align yourself with.

        And given that mentality, there’s a clear underlying assumption that if someone doesn’t agree with you, it’s because they lack the evidence (i.e. you know more than them) or it’s because they don’t understand (i.e. you’re smarter than them). Neither of which is *deliberately* condescending, but it is kind of condescending even if you don’t mean it to be.

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      • Okay, I think we should just agree to disagree.

        As a feminist, I’ve been in a domestic violence relationship and I’ve been raped. I’m speaking out for others because no one spoke out for me. I’m also speaking out for me.

        Well, I might not be deliberately condescending, but so are you, if we’re going to be honest. You’ve assumed I’ve picked a narrative, and that’s the narrative I want to deal with. It’s not true. I base my information on facts and life experiences. After studying law, and whilst currently studying psychology, the facts are on my side. More women are victims than men. As a teacher, I can’t count how many times a student has confided in me of a sexual assault or rape, and rarely anything eventuates of it. Or the slut-shaming and victim-blaming I’ve seen.

        Or the friends that have confided in me that they’ve been raped, too.

        Maybe not everyone’s screaming it out, but that doesn’t mean it’s not happening. Just because you find a woman it hasn’t happened to, and hopefully never will, doesn’t mean it’s not a problem. I don’t talk about when I was raped, but I still advocate against it. It took me years to accept what had happened.

        I was told so many of the questions I gave before.

        I am not trying to fit the information in and bend it to suit me. I’m dealing in a world of facts, evidence, research and life experiences that not only I’ve shared, but so have others.

        It’s condescending that you’re treating me like I’m cherry picking. It’s condescending that, despite the fact I fight for men’s rights, too, it doesn’t matter.

        But, to be honest, I’m really rather done. I’m more than confident with my degrees, my field of study, and everything else in between, to be pretty sure I’m not bending anything.

        So let’s just agree to disagree, yeah? Because you’re not going to listen to me, and you’re not going to change my mind. And no, I’m not studying a ‘feminist’ psychology course. I’m studying a domestic violence/child abuse course.

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      • “You’ve assumed I’ve picked a narrative, and that’s the narrative I want to deal with. It’s not true.”

        I didn’t really have to assume that, just observed it. You commented on one of my posts with that narrative, so that was all you showing and telling, not me assuming. You make a point of seeking out information related to that subject matter, and felt compelled to reply to me when I challenged that narrative in a post that was not specifically addressed to you, but to the narrative and the movement that uses it. So I didn’t assume anything, at least not on that count.

        “After studying law, and whilst currently studying psychology, the facts are on my side.”

        I think you’re mixing up “credentials” and “facts”. That you have are credentials and some education. What you yourself have admitted to lacking, at least in some very important respects, are facts. There’s a difference between having an education and knowing everything, I’d say.

        “It’s condescending that, despite the fact I fight for men’s rights, too, it doesn’t matter.”

        That’s not condescension, that’s simply my opinion. To my way of thinking that just doesn’t matter, and is at best an attempt to feel like your being fair (for your benefit) or to make it seem that way (for the benefit of others), neither of which makes it matter. We don’t need men’s rights advocates any more than we need women’s rights advocates in my opinion. Individual rights, sure, but gender specific… I’m just not a big fan of.

        “It’s condescending that you’re treating me like I’m cherry picking.”

        I didn’t think that was condescending since it’s pretty much what you (and most other feminists of the modern era) pretty much *have* to do to be able to make most of the claims feminists make.

        “I’m more than confident with my degrees, my field of study, and everything else in between, to be pretty sure I’m not bending anything.”

        Good. Even if I don’t agree with your position or opinions, I can respect your conviction and your willingness to listen. Which brings me to one of my last points…

        “Because you’re not going to listen to me, and you’re not going to change my mind.’

        This is maybe the only truly insulting thing you’ve said to me. I have been listening to you every step of the way, disagreeing with you doesn’t mean I haven’t been, just that I enjoy the same level of confidence in my opinion as you enjoy in yours. People can listen to one another, understand the other side of the conversation, even sympathize or empathize, without coming to an agreement.

        Conversely, I’ve assumed you’ve been listening to me. Not agreeing, but listening and responding. I give credit where credit’s due, at least in that respect, so the least you can do is do the same.

        “But, to be honest, I’m really rather done.”

        I’m okay with that.

        “And no, I’m not studying a ‘feminist’ psychology course. I’m studying a domestic violence/child abuse course.”

        Ah, so your field of study is reality based, and therefore gender neutral. Interesting… ’cause that kind of slight (but important) distinction in outlook, in the lens one looks through at issues, is really all I’d advocate for. It’s not a class about how women get beat up, it’s a course on domestic violence as a whole. So I guess you’re taking a class that kind of lines up with my perspective. That’s exactly the sort of thing I was talking about in my first reply to you: why bother with the term “feminist” if you can study these issues, or believe in so called “feminist” ideas, without being one or putting such on (over) emphasis on one gender or the other? *shrugs*

        “So let’s just agree to disagree, yeah?”

        I’m good with that 😉 .

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